Bless substack for putting this in my feed. It's so fascinating to get a peek behind the curtain of the other side of dates.
The one thing that stands out to me is this guy's desire to have an immediate connection - which to me reads like a "spark," a concept I 1) personally loathe, and 2) have also been told that's why it wasn't gonna work out. When this has happened to me I am first mad and then relieved, because I was no longer dating a person who perhaps believed that instant connections are better than the ones you build over time (with trust and vulnerability and generally making efforts to see each other).
Thank you for this Rachel. What his comments underscored for me most is how often it is the case in budding romantic interactions that we are reacting to past pain and loss. So, seemingly innocuous comments (“figuring him out”) take on over-weighted meaning. Whether it is because we are feeling vulnerable or for some other reason, I feel that we sometimes pick up too much noise with the signals.
This is hard - I would still be unsatisfied if I were you. It’d be so much more fulfilling if he was like, “you had broccoli in your teeth all night”, or even “you seem needy, because xyz”
It occurred to me that I’ve never really been able to be open with people when that thing would hurt their feelings. I’ve lied to people even in a “we’re really going to get to the bottom of this” kind of convo like the one you had here.
Like, if I broke up with someone because of something mean like “I found them boring after the initial getting-to-know-you convos ran dry” or “you’re too overweight for me but I didn’t realize until you wore short sleeves on the 3rd date” I would never ever say that - who would? It’s hard to even write those things here in generic form that don’t apply to any actual individual for me.
Which is to say, I don’t think you can be at all confident you got the real answer.
Hahaha totally! Though in my experience, the more specific one’s criticism, the less true it often is. Like, ultimately, isn’t the real reason we don’t connect with another person sort of a general, amorphous, impossible-to-articulate vibe?
In next week’s edition, I’m gonna talk a bit about how the interview made me feel and some of the bigger meaning I took away - and also address the very legitimate concern that trying to get someone to be honest might be impossible! Thank you so much for reading and engaging - seriously!
That's funny, no, I don't have that experience. Even when it's a vibe change I can always connect it to something that wouldn't be very nice to say to the person, even just if something like "I started to find them annoying, probably because xyz."
I think one of the tragedies of life is that it's impossible to really straight, uninhibited information on how people really perceive you (the negative stuff anyway.) The closest I've got is, weirdly, parts of an interview notes file on me - just some people dispassionately writing about what I'm like.
It’s unfortunately not that interesting. I got hired, so it was almost all positive feedback. I’m sure the notes for a job I didn’t get hired for would be a better story.
I got close to the HR lead and after a few years she shared anonymized notes with me.
This is such a great interview! I see a lot of judgment for Marathon Man in the comments, but to be honest, I get him. I also used to cut things off once I stopped feeling the ease or spark — if it happened early, that was the end. Trust and vulnerability can develop, but there’s a certain ineffable, immediate comfort that I didn’t want to waste my time forcing. I doubt I could explain in a way that satisfied anyone, but I just didn’t want to date anymore. And that’s enough!
I cannot recommend enough the glorious Heather Havrilesky’s many ‘Ask Polly’ advice columns about dating “tepid, flinchy dudes”, published in the New York Mag and before that The Awl (and now she publishes ‘Ask Polly’ here on Substack). Google and you shall find. Not all are about dating but many of them are, largely responding to female correspondents.
She is truly the High Priestess of kicking that flinchy shit to the curb, putting on your stompiest boots (metaphorically speaking), and making clear what it is that YOU want from life and relationships, with confidence and without fear.
These milquetoast bozos who get all scared because they might find themselves in a relationship - I.E., might have to do some work on themselves, which is the one true gift of being in a relationship - will be unhappy serial monogamists into their 40s and beyond, eternally disappointed that the princess they ordered hasn’t materialised and yet constantly on the lookout for flaws. Best avoided! Sending you power vibes, looking forward to reading next instalments. 💪
I am only just now re-entering the dating world after a 13 year hiatus (married), so idk the rules, but I wonder if in our own tendency to editorialize and obsess, we might seal our own fates.
3 amazing dates and 4 days of silence doesn’t seem like quite enough to elicit the narrative it did (though I’d also be super turned off by the silence).
And for me, once I’m already a certain depth into a doom spiral, I’m SURE I’m different outwardly. Which may account for the loss of whatever effortlessness had previously been present?
Either way, it seems the connection rightfully faded, because one wanted to hold onto that early depth and the other might’ve wanted the early ease.
That lack of alignment might matter more than the retrospective particulars.
Regardless, thanks so much for sharing with us! A really fascinating and generous exploration.
It's always a great reminder that a lot of dates going "poorly" are really just a finer reflection of the how our brains have been rewired (read: fucked up) by past relationships and the gamification of connection (read: big, flashing casino lights on a first date that better never dim).
That being said, I think I fall into a similar philosophy as Mr. Marathon; ease is King. From potential suitors to an acquaintance's acquaintance, ease is like harmonizing on the same wavelength; it's an immediate candor that hums between you, a natural gravitation back to someone's orbit. That's why I love dating friends, it's much easier to feel all of this out without the oppressive lens of "courtship" to view every minutiae through.
Great piece, I'm not sure why the concept of "sometimes things don't work out, and neither party is at fault" is so hard to grasp. It seems like if you try to articulate some small reason why you weren't enthusiastic, then you're nitpicking, if you attribute it to a general "spark", then you're a hopeless romantic. Communicating after you've met in person is always ideal, but who among us is without sin.
I don’t want to pass judgement and say he sucks so i’ll say his reasoning sucks and is nothing short of ridiculous. So he wants someone who 1) understands everything about him immediately 2) is always free so dating won’t be “complicated” and 3) he has an instant storybook spark with that never fades. all unrealistic and seems like the key word to describe what he wants is “easy” which is unfortunately not what relationships are. i think you dodged a bullet! great idea re: the interview
This was great. Thanks for laying yourself bare like this. I went out on a date with someone a few weeks ago, and it didn't work out, and I was wracking my brain to try and figure out why.
"I feel like I have had the feeling of like when you meet someone and it's like, almost upon saying hello, there’s this feeling of attraction or a connection. And those feelings just kind of stick around when it is meant to be it seems. "
Chemistry is either the most important thing ever or completely overrated. I could see either being correct, or perhaps like most things in life the truth lies somewhere in the gray area. Because chemistry *is* important. You need to have it, eventually, but do you need to feel it instantly?
When my date arrived at the bar and we hugged, I'll admit that something in my gut told me she wasn't interested. There was a tenseness in her body. A hesitancy. The chemistry, perhaps, wasn't there literally upon greeting me. Seems to suggest that the above quotation is correct.
This was good for me to read because I just got ghosted by a man I was seeing off and on for a year. I’m kind of devastated and I wish I could interview him and find out what he was thinking when he decided one day to never talk to me again. I’m like you when I get hooked in I get very obsessive. I hope the interview brought you peace. It’s interesting that you say that when there’s lots of nervous energy it feels connected and exciting to you because I’m the same way. It’s interesting that to him it just felt nervous. It makes me think about attachment style, like are you anxious maybe and he was secure? I don’t know if you’re into that at all but I’m always trying to figure out people’s attachment style these days.
I very much enjoyed this post because of all the detail it contained from the very beginning to the torturous end of your interactions with this man. This may sound arcane, but I think relying too much on text messages as the relationship progressed may have been a contributing factor to the two of you moving apart. An in-person or phone conversation communicates so much more about the feelings and intentions of both people than text messages. Also, in this case, texting appears to promote immature behavior like your man ghosting you rather than displaying the tiniest bit of courage and courtesy to simply phone you and nicely end the relationship. Immature is an understatement in this case. Here's hoping cowardly and immature men don't waste your time in the future! (LOL)
Of course, one can't control other people's behaviors, but one can set more mature parameters from the start, for example, by you communicating as much as possible by phone rather than always texting in response to a text. And if a man does ghost you again, interviewing him one day in the future to learn why is interesting (especially for this great newsletter!), but I hope you spend no more than two days asking yourself or your friends why it happened.
Really agree with this. Texts tend to be ambiguous and incapable of nuance. They push away rather than invite. They demand prompt replies but the lag affords an interval of time in which to carefully craft a response, which is not how people communicate from the heart.
really highlights how maybe in some situations neither person is wrong we're all just humans trying to navigate each other the best we can and sometimes people get hurt
I’m so glad you wrote about this because I’m dealing with a very similar scenario. He acted really interested for the first week or so, then just kinda ghosted and didn’t pick up the phone anymore. While I loved the look into this man’s thoughts, I can’t help but be discouraged further by the male brain and behavior. I’m sorry this happened to you especially because I know the angst of re-reading texts and analyzing what happened. Will definitely subscribe and wait for further volumes!
Bless substack for putting this in my feed. It's so fascinating to get a peek behind the curtain of the other side of dates.
The one thing that stands out to me is this guy's desire to have an immediate connection - which to me reads like a "spark," a concept I 1) personally loathe, and 2) have also been told that's why it wasn't gonna work out. When this has happened to me I am first mad and then relieved, because I was no longer dating a person who perhaps believed that instant connections are better than the ones you build over time (with trust and vulnerability and generally making efforts to see each other).
Thank you for reading Jessy!
Thank you for this Rachel. What his comments underscored for me most is how often it is the case in budding romantic interactions that we are reacting to past pain and loss. So, seemingly innocuous comments (“figuring him out”) take on over-weighted meaning. Whether it is because we are feeling vulnerable or for some other reason, I feel that we sometimes pick up too much noise with the signals.
This is hard - I would still be unsatisfied if I were you. It’d be so much more fulfilling if he was like, “you had broccoli in your teeth all night”, or even “you seem needy, because xyz”
It occurred to me that I’ve never really been able to be open with people when that thing would hurt their feelings. I’ve lied to people even in a “we’re really going to get to the bottom of this” kind of convo like the one you had here.
Like, if I broke up with someone because of something mean like “I found them boring after the initial getting-to-know-you convos ran dry” or “you’re too overweight for me but I didn’t realize until you wore short sleeves on the 3rd date” I would never ever say that - who would? It’s hard to even write those things here in generic form that don’t apply to any actual individual for me.
Which is to say, I don’t think you can be at all confident you got the real answer.
Hahaha totally! Though in my experience, the more specific one’s criticism, the less true it often is. Like, ultimately, isn’t the real reason we don’t connect with another person sort of a general, amorphous, impossible-to-articulate vibe?
In next week’s edition, I’m gonna talk a bit about how the interview made me feel and some of the bigger meaning I took away - and also address the very legitimate concern that trying to get someone to be honest might be impossible! Thank you so much for reading and engaging - seriously!
That's funny, no, I don't have that experience. Even when it's a vibe change I can always connect it to something that wouldn't be very nice to say to the person, even just if something like "I started to find them annoying, probably because xyz."
I think one of the tragedies of life is that it's impossible to really straight, uninhibited information on how people really perceive you (the negative stuff anyway.) The closest I've got is, weirdly, parts of an interview notes file on me - just some people dispassionately writing about what I'm like.
Anyway, it was an interesting article, thank you!
Oo parts of an interview notes file! I want to hear more about that...
It’s unfortunately not that interesting. I got hired, so it was almost all positive feedback. I’m sure the notes for a job I didn’t get hired for would be a better story.
I got close to the HR lead and after a few years she shared anonymized notes with me.
This is such a great interview! I see a lot of judgment for Marathon Man in the comments, but to be honest, I get him. I also used to cut things off once I stopped feeling the ease or spark — if it happened early, that was the end. Trust and vulnerability can develop, but there’s a certain ineffable, immediate comfort that I didn’t want to waste my time forcing. I doubt I could explain in a way that satisfied anyone, but I just didn’t want to date anymore. And that’s enough!
tysm for reading! means a lot!
I cannot recommend enough the glorious Heather Havrilesky’s many ‘Ask Polly’ advice columns about dating “tepid, flinchy dudes”, published in the New York Mag and before that The Awl (and now she publishes ‘Ask Polly’ here on Substack). Google and you shall find. Not all are about dating but many of them are, largely responding to female correspondents.
She is truly the High Priestess of kicking that flinchy shit to the curb, putting on your stompiest boots (metaphorically speaking), and making clear what it is that YOU want from life and relationships, with confidence and without fear.
These milquetoast bozos who get all scared because they might find themselves in a relationship - I.E., might have to do some work on themselves, which is the one true gift of being in a relationship - will be unhappy serial monogamists into their 40s and beyond, eternally disappointed that the princess they ordered hasn’t materialised and yet constantly on the lookout for flaws. Best avoided! Sending you power vibes, looking forward to reading next instalments. 💪
lol
I am only just now re-entering the dating world after a 13 year hiatus (married), so idk the rules, but I wonder if in our own tendency to editorialize and obsess, we might seal our own fates.
3 amazing dates and 4 days of silence doesn’t seem like quite enough to elicit the narrative it did (though I’d also be super turned off by the silence).
And for me, once I’m already a certain depth into a doom spiral, I’m SURE I’m different outwardly. Which may account for the loss of whatever effortlessness had previously been present?
Either way, it seems the connection rightfully faded, because one wanted to hold onto that early depth and the other might’ve wanted the early ease.
That lack of alignment might matter more than the retrospective particulars.
Regardless, thanks so much for sharing with us! A really fascinating and generous exploration.
Congrats on reentering the dating world!! And thanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts.
It's always a great reminder that a lot of dates going "poorly" are really just a finer reflection of the how our brains have been rewired (read: fucked up) by past relationships and the gamification of connection (read: big, flashing casino lights on a first date that better never dim).
That being said, I think I fall into a similar philosophy as Mr. Marathon; ease is King. From potential suitors to an acquaintance's acquaintance, ease is like harmonizing on the same wavelength; it's an immediate candor that hums between you, a natural gravitation back to someone's orbit. That's why I love dating friends, it's much easier to feel all of this out without the oppressive lens of "courtship" to view every minutiae through.
Great piece, I'm not sure why the concept of "sometimes things don't work out, and neither party is at fault" is so hard to grasp. It seems like if you try to articulate some small reason why you weren't enthusiastic, then you're nitpicking, if you attribute it to a general "spark", then you're a hopeless romantic. Communicating after you've met in person is always ideal, but who among us is without sin.
Brilliant idea. Fkg brave as hell too. Loved it! Saving as an example of writing into curiosity and discomfort for my writing students.
Omg huge compliment! Thank you so much!
Sooo this is gonna be a podcast right? Or already is?? FASCINATING.
I don’t want to pass judgement and say he sucks so i’ll say his reasoning sucks and is nothing short of ridiculous. So he wants someone who 1) understands everything about him immediately 2) is always free so dating won’t be “complicated” and 3) he has an instant storybook spark with that never fades. all unrealistic and seems like the key word to describe what he wants is “easy” which is unfortunately not what relationships are. i think you dodged a bullet! great idea re: the interview
This was great. Thanks for laying yourself bare like this. I went out on a date with someone a few weeks ago, and it didn't work out, and I was wracking my brain to try and figure out why.
"I feel like I have had the feeling of like when you meet someone and it's like, almost upon saying hello, there’s this feeling of attraction or a connection. And those feelings just kind of stick around when it is meant to be it seems. "
Chemistry is either the most important thing ever or completely overrated. I could see either being correct, or perhaps like most things in life the truth lies somewhere in the gray area. Because chemistry *is* important. You need to have it, eventually, but do you need to feel it instantly?
When my date arrived at the bar and we hugged, I'll admit that something in my gut told me she wasn't interested. There was a tenseness in her body. A hesitancy. The chemistry, perhaps, wasn't there literally upon greeting me. Seems to suggest that the above quotation is correct.
This was good for me to read because I just got ghosted by a man I was seeing off and on for a year. I’m kind of devastated and I wish I could interview him and find out what he was thinking when he decided one day to never talk to me again. I’m like you when I get hooked in I get very obsessive. I hope the interview brought you peace. It’s interesting that you say that when there’s lots of nervous energy it feels connected and exciting to you because I’m the same way. It’s interesting that to him it just felt nervous. It makes me think about attachment style, like are you anxious maybe and he was secure? I don’t know if you’re into that at all but I’m always trying to figure out people’s attachment style these days.
It's amazing to hear about when getting ghosted. It's a super common part of every man's life, being ghosted by women.
Really?? Even after dating for a long time women will suddenly ghost you?
Welcome to life, friend
"about women being ghosted" why is there no edit button?!
I very much enjoyed this post because of all the detail it contained from the very beginning to the torturous end of your interactions with this man. This may sound arcane, but I think relying too much on text messages as the relationship progressed may have been a contributing factor to the two of you moving apart. An in-person or phone conversation communicates so much more about the feelings and intentions of both people than text messages. Also, in this case, texting appears to promote immature behavior like your man ghosting you rather than displaying the tiniest bit of courage and courtesy to simply phone you and nicely end the relationship. Immature is an understatement in this case. Here's hoping cowardly and immature men don't waste your time in the future! (LOL)
Of course, one can't control other people's behaviors, but one can set more mature parameters from the start, for example, by you communicating as much as possible by phone rather than always texting in response to a text. And if a man does ghost you again, interviewing him one day in the future to learn why is interesting (especially for this great newsletter!), but I hope you spend no more than two days asking yourself or your friends why it happened.
Really agree with this. Texts tend to be ambiguous and incapable of nuance. They push away rather than invite. They demand prompt replies but the lag affords an interval of time in which to carefully craft a response, which is not how people communicate from the heart.
really highlights how maybe in some situations neither person is wrong we're all just humans trying to navigate each other the best we can and sometimes people get hurt
I’m so glad you wrote about this because I’m dealing with a very similar scenario. He acted really interested for the first week or so, then just kinda ghosted and didn’t pick up the phone anymore. While I loved the look into this man’s thoughts, I can’t help but be discouraged further by the male brain and behavior. I’m sorry this happened to you especially because I know the angst of re-reading texts and analyzing what happened. Will definitely subscribe and wait for further volumes!